Daniel, I can appreciate that you are wrestling through some of the "traditional understandings" of humankind's base level relationship with God.
Much of what the "church fathers" and "Orthodox doctrines" have to say needs to be challenged. But not because it doesn't jive with our desires or instinctual hunches, but because such things often don't accurately reflect the words of Jesus and His chosen apostles.
On this particular topic of innate closeness or distance from God you seem to be veering pretty far from Scripture though. Check out the teaching of the apostle Paul's in Ephesians chapter 2.
Perhaps the confusion in your mind has to do with God's actions of love towards us, even while we are living in rebellion, against Him. You seem to want to equate His mercy towards us with nearness of relationship. But the two are entirely different things. Mercy can lead to redemption, but the extension of that gracious behavior on God's part does not equal closeness.
As someone who has extended extreme levels of mercy to people who are running from God only to see them continue to run from me and God,...even to the point of cutting off all contact with me or anybody else who wants to talk to them about God's love, has taught me that love does not equal relationship. Love only equals relationship when it is reciprocal.
This is how it actually works...
"And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them...
And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the [v]saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."
Hey brother, I appreciate your comment here. I don't think we're saying different things here. I do believe that, without love, one may never perceive that "God is not far from each one of us." But it is not God who is far off; it is we who are far off in our hearts. God doesn't have to be reconciled to us; we have to be reconciled to God.
Ok, I think I see what you're saying now, Daniel. Sometimes when we talk theology the points that we are trying to make don't land without practical examples. What kind of person did you have in mind, who would benefit most from this message?
Probably someone who thinks that there is a gap between them and God that they must traverse through correct understanding, technically correct worship, or righteous acts.
I would love to discuss this further with you sometime. No doubt, there are people who think they can not have a relationship with God because they are lacking in one of those areas. But I think, for the most part, we all have about as close of a relationship with God as we want to, both believers and non-believers.
A problem I see in our "have it our way" culture is conforming God into our own image. So rather than having an actual relationship with God we have a make-believe one. Certainly perfect understanding and obedience are not necessary for a relationship with God, but humility and honesty are definitely indispensable in the process. And if we don't take Jesus and His apostles teachings as gospel, but make it into something more comfortable with our own self interest inclinations, my guess would be that we don't have a genuine relationship with our Maker.
I really wonder if so much of the relationship of humans and God or the fallen angels has to do with dominion.
If humans were given dominion on earth, then God honors that and does not force himself onto us. Similarly the devil cannot force himself onto humans unless they allow it.
Indeed, without being able to make free willed choices there would be no value in our response to God. It would just be like how the materialist explain things, as just inevitable causation. We are not automatons though, we are imperfect image bearers of a God who offers to all of us the opportunity to become complete and Holy as He is,... but only if that's what we really want.
I agree. The thing I think we miss is the power and authority we have on earth. We are always taught God is all powerful, true but he actually submits to humans in relationship. That is a foreign thought in many churches.
God does what he wants. No. To some extent God does what we ask. For example he gave Israel a King he never wanted.
Daniel, I can appreciate that you are wrestling through some of the "traditional understandings" of humankind's base level relationship with God.
Much of what the "church fathers" and "Orthodox doctrines" have to say needs to be challenged. But not because it doesn't jive with our desires or instinctual hunches, but because such things often don't accurately reflect the words of Jesus and His chosen apostles.
On this particular topic of innate closeness or distance from God you seem to be veering pretty far from Scripture though. Check out the teaching of the apostle Paul's in Ephesians chapter 2.
Perhaps the confusion in your mind has to do with God's actions of love towards us, even while we are living in rebellion, against Him. You seem to want to equate His mercy towards us with nearness of relationship. But the two are entirely different things. Mercy can lead to redemption, but the extension of that gracious behavior on God's part does not equal closeness.
As someone who has extended extreme levels of mercy to people who are running from God only to see them continue to run from me and God,...even to the point of cutting off all contact with me or anybody else who wants to talk to them about God's love, has taught me that love does not equal relationship. Love only equals relationship when it is reciprocal.
This is how it actually works...
"And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them...
And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the [v]saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit."
Hey brother, I appreciate your comment here. I don't think we're saying different things here. I do believe that, without love, one may never perceive that "God is not far from each one of us." But it is not God who is far off; it is we who are far off in our hearts. God doesn't have to be reconciled to us; we have to be reconciled to God.
Ok, I think I see what you're saying now, Daniel. Sometimes when we talk theology the points that we are trying to make don't land without practical examples. What kind of person did you have in mind, who would benefit most from this message?
Probably someone who thinks that there is a gap between them and God that they must traverse through correct understanding, technically correct worship, or righteous acts.
I would love to discuss this further with you sometime. No doubt, there are people who think they can not have a relationship with God because they are lacking in one of those areas. But I think, for the most part, we all have about as close of a relationship with God as we want to, both believers and non-believers.
A problem I see in our "have it our way" culture is conforming God into our own image. So rather than having an actual relationship with God we have a make-believe one. Certainly perfect understanding and obedience are not necessary for a relationship with God, but humility and honesty are definitely indispensable in the process. And if we don't take Jesus and His apostles teachings as gospel, but make it into something more comfortable with our own self interest inclinations, my guess would be that we don't have a genuine relationship with our Maker.
I really wonder if so much of the relationship of humans and God or the fallen angels has to do with dominion.
If humans were given dominion on earth, then God honors that and does not force himself onto us. Similarly the devil cannot force himself onto humans unless they allow it.
Indeed, without being able to make free willed choices there would be no value in our response to God. It would just be like how the materialist explain things, as just inevitable causation. We are not automatons though, we are imperfect image bearers of a God who offers to all of us the opportunity to become complete and Holy as He is,... but only if that's what we really want.
I agree. The thing I think we miss is the power and authority we have on earth. We are always taught God is all powerful, true but he actually submits to humans in relationship. That is a foreign thought in many churches.
God does what he wants. No. To some extent God does what we ask. For example he gave Israel a King he never wanted.
I tend to think of it more as a condescension, rather than submission, when God's gives us what we ask for.
I think he's better than that.
Lol! No doubt God is way "better" then we can imagine him to be.
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